Observations

All morality starts with a set of facts about the world one believes to be true.

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15 Responses to Observations

  1. […] author: philosophy « WordPress.com Tag Feed […]

  2. jackhudson says:

    …For example if one believes that the measure of what is moral proceeds from the nature of God, that God has given humans intrinsic worth and purpose for being, and that there will be a judgment for acting otherwise, this can form the basis for one’s morality. Not believing these things also informs one’s moral choices – there is no morally neutral belief about God. Atheists who make this claim are being disingenuous.

    This has been made painfully obvious in human history.

  3. trog69 says:

    Maybe what you deem “disingenuous”, we would call “unsure what the heck you’re talking about”. My personal, “moral compass” never changed just because I finally decided that Christianity was not a valid belief system.

    I did not believe that homosexual behavior was sinful before I lost what little belief I had, nor did I suddenly find the whole world of “sinful behavior” opened up to me because I was somehow free to act as I wished.

    Almost every other non-believer I’ve encountered has had a similar experience. It’s merely ideologues such as yourself who refuse to listen when we tell you this, and continue arguing against an atheist that none of us recognize.

  4. trog69 says:

    Here’s why the idea of an omnipotent, omniscient God, interacting with the inhabitants of our planet, is so unlikely as to be not even worth considering as an option:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pale_Blue_Dot

  5. jackhudson says:

    It has nothing to do with being an ideologue; it has to do with logic. For example, I bear no ill will against homosexuals, I have relatives that are homosexuals and I have had roommates that were homosexuals.

    As an agnostic I didn’t have any particular opinion about homosexuality –as a Christian I believe humans are designed to be in a sexual relationship with the opposite sex. All that has changed in that equation is what I believe to be true about the nature of the world and humans. What would be curious is if that belief had no effect whatsoever on my ideas about proper human sexual behavior.

    So then the fact that you were formerly theistic is in a sense irrelevant; if you didn’t think that reality was pertinent to the design of humans. It would not in fact be substantively different than agnosticism or atheism. In short your morality didn’t change because your belief about what was factually true about human sexuality didn’t change in a substantive way, only in a nominal way.

    So I don’t think we actually disagree here.

  6. jackhudson says:

    Here’s why the idea of an omnipotent, omniscient God, interacting with the inhabitants of our planet, is so unlikely as to be not even worth considering as an option:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pale_Blue_Dot

    So if God existed what – the earth would be red and the size of Jupiter? Humans would be forty feet tall?

  7. trog69 says:

    haha! Obstinate, huh? You’d think, with all those super-powers, that God could leave even a scrap of proof of it’s existence, since we live on such a tiny speck of dust. But, no; Your God has left you with basically the very same tale that someone who wanted to scam people would make up. Creator of the Universe, yet it couldn’t manage that. Pathetic.

  8. trog69 says:

    I admit that you’ve lost me, here. Are you just trying to indicate that since I was’nt and fundamentalist believer, that I wasn’t a real Christian?

  9. jackhudson says:

    haha! Obstinate, huh? You’d think, with all those super-powers, that God could leave even a scrap of proof of it’s existence, since we live on such a tiny speck of dust. But, no; Your God has left you with basically the very same tale that someone who wanted to scam people would make up. Creator of the Universe, yet it couldn’t manage that. Pathetic.

    trog, you live in a universe that is precisely tuned so that the very elements that makes up your body can exist as they do. You live in a sweet spot of a galaxy wherein the vast majority of the stars could never support a planet that sustains life, but yours happens to be the right size, temperature, stability, position, and chemical composition to do so.

    You live in a sweet spot on a planet around a star that if it was a little different in terms of its orbit, or rotation, or the satellite that accompanies it, or the planets that reside alongside it, or the angle of its axis were slightly different, you wouldn’t exist. If the water didn’t exist with the molecular structure it has or in the abundance it just happens to on this planet, you wouldn’t exist.

    If you didn’t have billions of machines running according to the instructions encoded in billions of information systems in every cell of your body and every cell of every living organism on this planet, you wouldn’t exist. If you didn’t happen to be unique among species and just happen to have the conscious self-awareness to appreciate these facts, they wouldn’t matter.

    The reality is trog, there is literally so much evidence it is ubiquitous, and it takes a lifetime of closing one’s eyes, or being trained to do so, not to see it. If you win the lottery once its luck, if you win it a hundred times in a row, someone wants you to win it. I am not the one living in denial of reality here.

  10. jackhudson says:

    I admit that you’ve lost me, here. Are you just trying to indicate that since I was’nt and fundamentalist believer, that I wasn’t a real Christian?

    No, I am saying it doesn’t matter what you called yourself, if you didn’t believe cetain facts to be true about reality, it wouldn’t affect your views of morality.

  11. trog69 says:

    Which reality are you talking about? Yours?

    As to the pathetic “fine-tuned” argument, it has been smacked down by countless others, so I’ll not waste my time even trying to educate you further, as you have already decided to close your mind to any other explanation that doesn’t include your misogynist god.

  12. trog69 says:

    I probably shouldn’t have used the term “smacked down” as I do know that there remain scientists who describe the universe as fine-tuned. Rather, because so much of it is not decided, I don’t see how anyone can say it is a proof of an intelligence creating it. Many scientists who have agreed with the proposition also indicate that creationists who try to use it to prop up their beliefs are guilty of being unimaginative; unable to comprehend anything not carbon-based as a possible life-form.

  13. jackhudson says:

    As to the pathetic “fine-tuned” argument, it has been smacked down by countless others, so I’ll not waste my time even trying to educate you further, as you have already decided to close your mind to any other explanation that doesn’t include your misogynist god

    I always find it amusing that atheist invariably answer arguments by pointing out that the argument in question has been answered by some unknown ‘others’. Of course they themselves can’t ‘smack it down’ nor can they themselves explain how others have ‘smacked it down’, or even cite those who have actually done so.

    trog, I can make my own arguments for what I believe and defend them – can you? If you can’t, just say so, don’t pretend the fact that mysterious others have made imaginary arguments somehow makes your faith true.

    I wrote what I did in response to the contention that the earth was some non-descript ‘pale blue dot’ in the universe per Sagan. It’s not – it is in a unique and privileged place; those are the facts.

  14. trog69 says:

    This coming from the same * that posted a whole list of arguments supposedly proving the existence of God, all made by other people. Drop dead, I’m done here.

  15. jackhudson says:

    All arguments for and against the existence of God have probably been made by someone else sometime in history. The question is whether you can articulate and defend them, and whether currently known facts support them. Obviously not in your case.

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