Observations

The claim that science is the best way of knowing what is true cannot itself be verified scientifically.

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29 Responses to Observations

  1. Michael Hawkins says:

    Please cite me when you are referring to things I specifically say.

  2. jackhudson says:

    You may have said it at one point, but you certainly weren’t the first or only person to say it.

  3. Michael Hawkins says:

    You regularly read my site, regularly reply to points I make with posts of your own, and “Science is the best way of knowing” is something I regularly say. You are referencing something I say. Please cite me when you do.

  4. jackhudson says:

    You regularly read my site, regularly reply to points I make with posts of your own, and “Science is the best way of knowing” is something I regularly say. You are referencing something I say. Please cite me when you do.

    Actually I occasionally read your site because it parrots, in a concise form, what atheists are generally saying. Sort of like a crib sheet on the latest atheist memes. That is when you’re not raging against some person that you hate. But the reality is Michael, it is you who keeps obsessively pursuing me here. I have no idea why.

  5. A major portion of your site is based upon references to my posts. Cite me.

  6. Bettawrekonize says:

    Wow, that’s pretty immature and delusionally conceded.

    Michael, are you really that desperate for attention?

  7. Bettawrekonize says:

    “Science is the best way of knowing” is something I regularly say. You are referencing something I say. Please cite me when you do.”

    Saying “hello” to others is something I regularly say. Whenever you use the word “Hello” you are referencing something I say. Please cite me.

  8. Neil says:

    Re. the original post: Excellent point. That is a very common abuse of logic by materialists.

    Is it a universal moral imperative to cite someone who makes common (or even uncommon) utterances on a blog? I wonder what the philosophical grounding is for that.

  9. Bettawrekonize says:

    “Is it a universal moral imperative to cite someone who makes common (or even uncommon) utterances on a blog?”

    This is a perfect opportunity for Jack to discuss atheism, theism, and morality.

  10. Michael Hawkins says:

    Betta – If you would like, I can start linking back to my posts every time Jack references me. I just don’t know if you want to be visiting a science/atheist blog so many times every week.

  11. Bettawrekonize says:

    “Betta – If you would like, I can start linking back to my posts every time Jack references me. I just don’t know if you want to be visiting a science/atheist blog so many times every week.”

    I have little doubt that you’ve said some of the things that Jhud criticizes but that hardly means that no one else has said what you said or that others aren’t capable of independently saying similar things. In fact, much of science is composed of people independently making similar discoveries and coming to similar conclusions (ie: Leibniz and Newton with Calculus).

    I would say independent discovery and independently produced similar thoughts are very common in many fields from business science to computer science to mathematics to chemistry to biology to philosophy and across many other fields of thought, discovery, and logic.

  12. Bettawrekonize says:

    and seriously Michael, do you cite others (with specific names) every time you say something that somewhat resembles an idea or set of words that someone else says? Each and every time? I highly doubt it. I’m not saying you don’t cite others, just that you probably don’t cite others to the ridiculous degree that you expect others to cite you.

  13. jackhudson says:

    Like I said Michael, when I do observe you saying something I tend to go back to the source, which is almost always another atheist site. Perhaps you should start citing them – it would make easier on me.

  14. Take a close look at the dates. Within a day or two of my posts, Jack responds. (Heck, that’s the whole reason it was so easy to search two blogs to find corresponding topics.)

    It’s hard to imagine that going back just a month and a half Jack has 5 posts which reference the same topics that appear on my blog. And not the same topics as in “religion” or “politics”, but as in specific points being made. And gee, all of his posts come after mine.

  15. jackhudson says:

    When was the day of this particular post that I supposedly copied?

    Or what about the time you started live blogging on the election when I did? Or the fact that you have several posts on your site where in the title you mention me by name? Or the fact that you commented on my site before I even knew who your were or what your site was? Micheal, I think you are projecting a little bit. And becoming stalker-ish. Seriously, chill out.

  16. Jack. It isn’t hard for me to do a print screen and save the image. Just approve the comment.

  17. Bettawrekonize says:

    Michael, you do know that your immaturity does not help advance your position.

    A: It’s a waste of effort and time. The effort and time you waste being immature can more efficiently be spent learning and thinking critically about the issues and perhaps addressing them logically.

    B: It contributes to the thought that those who hold your position are immature and therefore your position is likely not well thought out. If you help people associate your position with immature people it will make people less likely to thoroughly consider your position being that they will more likely think it’s simply a waste of time.

    Ok, I’m guilty of allowing you to further derail this discussion beyond recognition.

    Can we get back on topic now?

  18. Michael Hawkins says:

    Betta – Jack has put in moderation a post of mine citing all his reference posts. Please view my site for an honest, unedited post shortly.

  19. Bettawrekonize says:

    “Or what about the time you started live blogging on the election when I did?”

    I guess the problem here might be that Michael thinks correlation equals causation.

    Perhaps the reason why everyone started blogging about the election around the same time isn’t because everyone is copying each other, it’s because the elections are occurring during the time of discussion and the occurrence of the elections are causing more people to discuss the elections during that time.

    Similarly, perhaps the reason Michael discusses a particular issue during a particular time could be because others are discussing the same issue during that time (maybe it’s caused because some new book recently came out that discusses the same issue which brings up the topic) and so everyone is discussing it. Hence, Jack and Michael are discussing the same issues not because they are copying each other but simply because that’s what everyone else happens to be discussing during that time frame.

  20. jackhudson says:

    No Michael, I did not ‘put it in moderation’. it had lots of links in it, so it sat in moderation until you pointed it out. Actually some of Betta’s posts go into moderation automatically on occasion even though we genrally agree on most things.

  21. Michael Hawkins says:

    That’s fair enough. I should have recognized that. I apologize.

    Betta – The post is available for you now.

  22. Michael Hawkins says:

    Perhaps the reason why everyone started blogging about the election around the same time isn’t because everyone is copying each other, it’s because the elections are occurring during the time of discussion and the occurrence of the elections are causing more people to discuss the elections during that time.

    Similarly, perhaps the reason Michael discusses a particular issue during a particular time could be because others are discussing the same issue during that time (maybe it’s caused because some new book recently came out that discusses the same issue which brings up the topic) and so everyone is discussing it. Hence, Jack and Michael are discussing the same issues not because they are copying each other but simply because that’s what everyone else happens to be discussing during that time frame.

    I did plan on live blogging during the election, but I remembered to do it sooner than later when I saw Jack’s post. But that isn’t the same as referencing, which is what I’m talking about. If I started making rebuttals to some points Jack was making, I would have been referencing him without citing him.

  23. Michael Hawkins says:

    When was the day of this particular post that I supposedly copied?

    Or what about the time you started live blogging on the election when I did? Or the fact that you have several posts on your site where in the title you mention me by name? Or the fact that you commented on my site before I even knew who your were or what your site was? Micheal, I think you are projecting a little bit. And becoming stalker-ish. Seriously, chill out.

    You reference my posts. I did not say you copy them.

    Yes, your post reminded me to live blog. The initial idea didn’t come from you, but you did serve as a reminder. Regardless, that isn’t referencing.

    When I make posts using your name, I link back to you directly and then to the specific post in mind. There may also be times when I like back to a previous post about you on FTSOS.

    I commented on your site before I even had a site. The reason was that I wanted to finish a discussion from a message board but was unable to do so because I had been banned for saying being gay wasn’t a choice.

  24. jackhudson says:

    Micheal, the Martin-Loyd Jones quote was from this post on First Things:

    http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2010/09/09/faith-is-thinking/

    Which I read somewhat fanatically, and which comments on many of the same issues.

    But I freely admit many of your cliched and trite posts about Christianity and atheism inspire me. I mean it’s rather hard not to notice a blog that often features me as a topic and which has a proprietor who obsessively comments on my posts. I even created a category inspired by you called ‘Low hanging fruit’ where I deal with the most common misconceptions atheists have about faith, culture and science.

    So if I quote something you write verbatim, which I almost never will, I will cite you. Otherwise, I will probably generally respond to your bad arguments again in the future. Get used to it.

  25. Bettawrekonize says:

    To be fair to Michael, it is sometimes courteous to sometimes cite someone when referencing their work in particular. I don’t think it’s morally wrong not to and I, myself, don’t usually do it.

    Many of my ideas about many things have been built from Jhud and many others online. I can also tell that Jhud and others have even gotten some of their thoughts from me (though I have clearly gotten many more thoughts from Jack than he has from me. He is clearly more knowledgeable about Christianity and Intelligent design than I am).

    I don’t cite each person that has contributed to my every thought each time I express something. and I don’t expect others to cite me every time they express a thought to which I contributed. Such seems excessively burdensome.

    However, I think that demanding people to cite you seems inappropriate. If anything, perhaps a polite request might be somewhat more appropriate.

  26. Michael Hawkins says:

    Aside from this not being the first time I have asked Jack to cite me when making posts based off mine – often making his posts with a day or two – I did ask politely here.

    Please cite me when you are referring to things I specifically say.

  27. jackhudson says:

    Tell what Michael – how about if we just take a break?

    I am not all that interested in having you post here, and I am not at all interested in posting on your site. I’ll ask politely as well – you don’t refer to me or my blog, and I won’t in any way refer to yours?

    Sound good?

  28. Justin says:

    “Scientism”, one name for the belief that science is the best way of knowing (or taken to the extreme, the “only” way of knowing) has been around long before you were born, Michael.

  29. Bettawrekonize says:

    “science is the best way of knowing”

    What about consciousness. It can neither be measured, observed, or falsified/tested yet we know it exists.

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