Civility On Display in Wisconsin

The Left-wing version:

I don’t think there is anything angrier in the world than a liberal forced to deal with fiscal reality.

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13 Responses to Civility On Display in Wisconsin

  1. Dan Trabue says:

    So, can we agree that it is wrong for anyone – liberals, conservatives or other – to randomly call those fellow citizens we disagree with “hitler,” a fascist, a communist, a stalinist? That we ought not say, “He wants to destroy America!” or “She wants to destroy the family!”?

    That we ought not accuse the Other of standing against all that is good? That we ought not accuse the Other of being no the side of Satan? That we ought not accuse the Other of being on the side of terrorists?

    I’d suggest it would be best if we could avoid this, especially when we’re merely talking about differences of opinion on policies with non-fatal consequences.

    I think SOME excess can be excused when we’re speaking of more fatal, deadly policy consequences (bombing other nations, invading other nations, supporting torture or actually supporting terrorists…) but in general, all these things are not a good way to disagree, whichever side we’re on.

    Perhaps if the more liberal types will try to stop those few on their side who are given to excess and the more conservative types will try to stop those on their side who are given to excess?

  2. Justin says:

    A school district here just fired a ton of teachers today. At some point we do need to recognize that an ever-growing government is indeed destroying this country, whether the destruction is intentional or not.

    In Obama’s case he fundamentally wants more government, has Marxist tendencies, and thinks that we can keep printing money indefinitely. All are clearly destructive policies, and he wants to implement them. So I think it is fair that he does indeed want to fundamentally change this country, destroying it in the process.

  3. jackhudson says:

    @Dan

    We can only be responsible for ourselves of course, but generally speaking I agree name calling is wrong (not to mention logically fallacious).

    I think what the video shows is the wrong perception (particularly in the media) that problem is primarily or even wholly attributable to those on the right.

  4. The Judge says:

    Jack, there’s a few issues regarding Christianity on which I’d like to hear your opinion. If I take the time to formulate some questions, would you dedicate a post in your blog to address them? Provided that you find them interesting, of course.

    (Pardons for not just posing them directly. Thinking about these things requires some time and effort and I’d rather save it myself if it’s not your custom to write extensively in response to your readers).

    Thanks!

  5. jackhudson says:

    Sure Judge. I have to let you know I am fairly busy right now with other concerns (despite the perception that I am always hanging out here 🙂 ) so it might be a little while before I can formulate a response, but feel free to post questions (here if you like) and I will work at addressing them in later posts.

  6. The Judge says:

    Thanks Jack. I’ll try and be as clear and orderly as possible. These are my questions.

    1. How do you account for people brought up in Christian families/education who then willingly and freely turn away from the religion (without being pushed by terrible personal tragedies or some such)? (Mike at the A-Unicornist is an example we both know, of course). In your opinion, what needs and desires did these people have which Christianity failed to fulfill?

    2. Your post ‘By the Numbers’ intrigued me. There are many things I disagree with in it, incidentally, but I’ll leave those aside and take cue from a significant statement you make:

    “Also, atheism tends to be largely a Western European phenomena (Japan is an exception here – though I would argue Japan is the most Westernized of the Asian countries) because that is where atheism is the most comfortable. It has little to offer societies that deal with the everyday struggle to survive, unlike Christianity.”

    It follows logically from this statement that societies in the West are less concerned with the everyday struggle to survive than the East – and therefore, that these societies are richer and perhaps even more educated. What conclusions do we draw from this? More precisely —

    a.) The fact Western countries are richer in terms of GNP per capita than Eastern countries is, I hope, past controversy (particularly in Africa). So, since you draw a direct correlation between the poverty of certain nations and their rising Christianity, does it follow that countries being richer makes them less likely to be Christian? If not, how do you explain the almost perfect correlation between GNP per capita and relative popularity of atheism (by your own statement that atheism is a Western phenomenon)? And if (national) material richness does indeed lead towards (national) spiritual empoverishment, and assuming that eternal salvation is only attained via Christianity (a gospel dogma – I’m assuming you don’t disagree with this?), does it follow that we should combat widespread welfare, pensions, financial aid to families, maternity leaves, benefits for the disabled, cheaper healthcare, and more generally anything that may lead to growth in our economies, because these things are ultimately more likely to lead away from Christ (and therefore eternal salvation)? This question is not rhetorical at all – I’m just puzzled by the apparent contradiction of trying to improve a society’s economic conditions while trying to enrich them spiritually (and therefore save them). How do you reconcile the two things?

    b.) The question of education is a little more dubious. Do you agree that the West has greater/broader/better universal education than the East? If so, how do you explain the correlation between the rise in average intelligence and popularity of atheism in the West (I’m assuming it’s not a controversial statement that better education leads to greater intelligence)? Is intelligence more likely to lead away from Christianity? (Again, not a rhetorical question). And if you don’t agree that the West has better and more widespread general education, then how is the East better off than we are?

    3. You say that atheism is a Western phenomenon. Isn’t that true of monotheism as well? And doesn’t it therefore invalidate your original criticism (everything you said of atheism could be applied also to monotheism)?

    As you can see, they’re pretty hefty questions. I won’t take issue if you decide not to tackle all of them, or if you deal with them in different posts. Also bear in mind that the first question is the one I’m most interested in, so it would be a great starting point.

    In reality I have one other very major issue which I would like to discuss, but I don’t want you to dilute your answers in an attempt to cover as much ground as possible, so I’ll save it (potentially) for future occasions.

    Thanks again.
    Judge.

  7. The Judge says:

    PS: If anybody else, like Justin, would like to chip in and give their answers to No.1, you are all welcome – as long as Jack doesn’t take it as an excuse to slink out of it. 😉 I’m especially interested in his opinion.

    The same thing applies to the other questions, though they follow from an original statement by Jack himself, so I guess they presuppose a very strong agreement with his position.

  8. jackhudson says:

    Thanks for the excellent questions Judge. Though several are related, I think a number of them deserve their own posts. I will try to get some thoughts down about the first one this weekend, and I think I can group some of the later ones together for a response at a later time. Hope this will do.

  9. Justin says:

    Hi Judge!

    As to question one, any answer I would give would be pure speculation, as I have never really been what I would call an atheist. I did for a period of time go through a nonreligious period where I sewed some oats, but even then I was not atheistic.

    Based on self-described atheists that I have spoken with over the past thee or four years, many who were Christian at one time state that they simply stopped finding the Bible credible. Most of their arguments and criticisms revolved around God of the Bible. Anyway, that has been my experience in visiting with atheists, and yours or Jack’s experience might be different.

  10. Justin says:

    TRUTHOVERfaith,

    Actually, the most common atheistic arguments that still carry weight today were originally composed by medieval goat herders. I take it you’re still searching for a rational world view?

  11. nate says:

    Justin is almost correct.

    As long as there has been belief in _______ there has been argument against _______. There is no belief in anything that has ever been free from detractors.

    Even within science itself, black holes were constantly railed against for almost 30 years after their first serious preposition. Does that make every idea valid? No way, but simply because you detract doesn’t mean you yourself are correct.

    You spew forth venom like a child. A reasoned argument or discussion doesn’t take the form in which you first posted here and on my blog.

    TRUTHOVERfaith, you are of course welcome to comment at my blog and I assume here, but you’ll have to actually make an argument, not just shout and scream and stamp your foot. I for one will simply remove your comments if your only goal is the foot stamping, I never censor anything relating to the topic at hand, but I won’t allow my comments to become overrun with childish insults either. I’ll make a post just for that if you want.

  12. nate says:

    There you go “TRUTH”OVERfaith. Feel free to spread your love there. All you want.

    http://congressshallmakenolaw.wordpress.com/2011/02/21/under-the-bridge-where-trolls-belong/

  13. […] the comments section of a recent post Judge asked a number of questions regarding Christianity, which I found to be interesting enough to merit individual posts. I will […]

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