Observations

There is no logical reason to expect that a person who isn’t commited to sexual faithfulness before marriage will be commited to sexual faithfulness after marriage.

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21 Responses to Observations

  1. Nate says:

    Remember that tiger that changed his stripes?

  2. The Judge says:

    So what are you suggesting? That being an atheist has some kind of connection with being unfaithful to your partner?

  3. jackhudson says:

    Not at all. It was a thought that occurred to me related to the recent turn of events with certain congress people.

  4. kenetiks says:

    Yes there is.

    Alimony!

  5. Dan Trabue says:

    A change of heart? “I’ve realized the emptiness in sexual adventure after sexual adventure – I want to settle down, be committed to JUST ONE person…” That kind of thing? I’m sure it happens.

    How often it happens, I don’t know, but I’m sure it happens.

  6. jackhudson says:

    I am sure it happens, but I I don’t know why someone would logically expect it to happen the moment vows are concluded.

  7. kenetiks says:

    Well from my own standpoint being promiscuous just isn’t that much fun.

    For instance. You have to go through all the motions of getting to know someone well enough to mutually agree to have sex, then try to figure out what’s off limits and what the new person likes or doesn’t. There’s the risk of STD contraction. Crushing consequences to your home life, constant disruptions and added stress. I guess I would have to ask; Why wouldn’t you simply settle down with just one person?

    Humans don’t seem to take sexual transgressions lightly as a species and would on the surface seem to be evolutionarily suited to long term relationships. Sure sex is fun and we are somewhat driven by the procreative act but on a whole to me, it’s far more trouble than it’s worth.

  8. kenetiks says:

    I am sure it happens, but I I don’t know why someone would logically expect it to happen the moment vows are concluded.

    Well one shouldn’t. One should expect it happened before the vows where concluded. Else why would they be taking vows?

    The logical conclusion is that the vows are the effect and not the cause.

  9. jackhudson says:

    Well the problem may be kinetics that we are both assuming logic and common sense have anything to do with it. Obviously for a significant portion of the population (many of whom seem to occupy political office) that isn’t true.

    But then again am guessing they aren’t using their brains to make such decisions to begin with.

  10. The Judge says:

    I don’t know about the congressmen but I can tell you that being promiscuous is a lot of fun to me! 🙂 To the question, “Why wouldn’t you simply settle down with just one person?”, the answer is that sex with the same person normally becomes boring after a definite period of time. It’s often more trouble than it’s worth, but it also leads to more creativity and emotional maturation than almost any other thing I know.

    I’m not saying this is all I ever want from life, but I certainly don’t fail to see the pleasure in having lots of sex with many beautiful girls, when this is possible. Hard to believe it’s even being asked. 😛

  11. kenetiks says:

    I don’t know about the congressmen but I can tell you that being promiscuous is a lot of fun to me! 🙂 To the question, “Why wouldn’t you simply settle down with just one person?”, the answer is that sex with the same person normally becomes boring after a definite period of time. It’s often more trouble than it’s worth, but it also leads to more creativity and emotional maturation than almost any other thing I know.

    I’m not saying this is all I ever want from life, but I certainly don’t fail to see the pleasure in having lots of sex with many beautiful girls, when this is possible. Hard to believe it’s even being asked. 😛

    Fun, possibly, but I fail to see how being promiscuous “leads to more creativity and emotional maturation”.

    If it’s creativity your interested in, then the safer alternative are the terabytes of videos available to all via streaming online.

    I don’t think promiscuity develops maturity either. Perhaps you are interchanging “experienced”with “mature”. I don’t see anything wrong with being promiscuous as a rule, as long as both parties are agreeable. I just quite frankly don’t see the point. After all, aside from natural aesthetic variations; Are we all not pretty much anatomically the same? Of course from my standpoint, I try to avoid as much added stress factors as possible and for me, a single partner suits my needs just fine.

  12. The Judge says:

    Almost every time I get laid, I end up writing a few poems about it. Since I’m a poet and critic, this is something very significant. Periods of chastity, by contrast, frequently coincide with dry spells in my writing. That’s what I meant by creativity.

    As for maturity, sexual engagement with another person leads inevitably to emotional engagement, and this in turn leads to emotional maturation. There can be no maturation without interaction with other people, and sex (with all its implications) is one type of interaction.

    If you don’t see the point, amen to you. Like good music or good food, which also require effort and investment, sex is its own reward. No-one’s forcing you to do it and no-one’s going to protest if you don’t take part. 😛

  13. jackhudson says:

    Well, good music and good food actually take years of commitment and discipline.

    Take good wine – there is commitment to the land, development of the vinyard, the bottling and aging. The best wines have taken generations to develop. That is maturity – commitment to something lasting, preservation of that which produces consistently, sustaining something worthwhile to present to the next generation. The glass of wine, like sex, is the punctuation mark, not the sentence.

    One can get drunk off a case of cheap beer, and drunkeness certainly has led to plenty of poetry and music, but it should never be confused with something lasting and mature.

  14. kenetiks says:

    One can get drunk off a case of cheap beer, and drunkeness certainly has led to plenty of poetry and music, but it should never be confused with something lasting and mature.

    Oh god lol.

  15. The Judge says:

    I meant the enjoyment of good food, not its production. I’d say that enjoying food and music take *less* commitment than successful sex. Learning how to cook is certainly an easier trade than learning how to seduce a woman (a process which takes years and lots of endurance), at least in my experience!

  16. jackhudson says:

    Well you may not enjoy the production of food, but in order for you to enjoy food there has to someone with discipline and commitment to tend the land, plant the crop, harvest the fruit, and prepare and distribute. We enjoy the prosperity we do because others are faithful.

    I would say the same is true for sex. A society that enjoys the liberty to have sex when it will and how it will is always a society that is well fed, well educated, and enjoys the faithful labor of those who came before it. It is a parasitic mindset because such relationships do not in and of themselves produce stable families and strong communities – the foundation for future generations to enjoy the blessings of prosperity.

    As long as a certain number of people in a society commit themselves to the maturity and faithful committed relationships, there will be certain segment that will take advantage of that for its own selfish pleasure. When that core is gone, then the unsustainability of promiscuousness becomes evident. This is already evident in our inner-cities – I believe it is growing more evident with the financial crisis that is spreading around the world..
    Of course the problem arises when we discover that an entire society devoted to selfish sexual pleasure is unsustainable it is often too late to repair it.

    I don’t mean to preachy here, and I definitely speak as one who had my share of selfish-sexual relationships in my youth, I am just saying the mature view is the long term view; and sexual promiscuity is not a long term prospect for a society or an individual.

  17. kenetiks says:

    Well, as one who also had his exploits in his youth I can attest to the fact that it seemed to be of utmost importance at the time but I can’t seem to remember why.

    Anyway, I since I do not share in the conviction of the godly, I see no “requirement” for permanently committed monogamous partners. That’s not to say I don’t value such a partnership or that I don’t feel that marriages are archaic or worthless. A good portion of the population of our species do mate for life. This seems to be a natural mechanism just like other species that only mate with one partner for life. This is not to say that such an arrangement is beneficial to every person, it isn’t. Some people are loners, some are promiscuous, some change with age.

    For me, a long term mutually monagamous relation best suits me, my lifestyle and my long term goals of raising my son. This is what works for me currently but shouldn’t necessarily be forced on everyone. To each his or her own. As long as lives aren’t being destroyed or harmed and it’s mutually argreeable, it’s really none of anyone else business what foes on behind closed doors.

  18. The Judge says:

    As long as a certain number of people in a society commit themselves to the maturity and faithful committed relationships, there will be certain segment that will take advantage of that for its own selfish pleasure.

    There is nothing selfish about making love to a person you’re reciprocally attracted to. That’s the oddest thing I’ve ever heard you say. And thinking of sex as some socially utilitarian practice is one of the most squalid and depressing things I can imagine. I have sex because I like it and so do my partners. There’s no more to the question than that, it’s like you guys were asking me “what’s the point of sitting down and watching a rainbow?”

    Kenetics, I’m pleased to hear you speaking that way.

  19. jackhudson says:

    Just because you enjoy something doesn’t mean that the only reason that something exists is for enjoyment. I enjoy food, but food serves a greater purpose beyond mere pleasure. We don’t eat it continually because it is pleasurable, and we don’t stop eating if we don’t find food pleasurable at some point. To do so would create a pain that far outweighs the moments of pleasure we receive from eating.

    In the same way sex isn’t only about mutual pleasure. Whether one believes it to be by design, or believes it to be a matter of incidental biology sex is involved with procreation, with bonding two people together to form a family, and ultimately with building the communities and civilizations we live in.

    We currently observe communities that make sex just about two people acting on their mutual attractions; they are rife with poverty, disease, and the sacrifice of children for the inconvenience they present to fulfilling that ‘mutual attraction’. Acting merely to satisfy one’s urges destroys marriage, families, and jobs. I mean how people do I have to list? Jonathan Edwards, Tiger Woods, Dominique Strauss-Kahn, John Ensign, Newt Gingrich, Anthony Weiner. It’s not as if my claims are without evidence, it’s just that no one seems to think it applies to them.

    We have a vast industry which objectifies and productizes human beings (mostly young women) so individuals can satisfy their urges whenever they please. It is even the major reason why human trafficking is growing in the 21st century – some 100 years after we sought to eradicate slavery. You want to see ‘squalid and depressing’? Spend some time in an African AIDs orphanage, where you can see the full impact of people merely pursuing their mutual pleasures. Ask those children if what a parent did wasn’t ‘selfish’.

    So yes, sex merely for the sake of ‘reciprocal attraction’ is one of the most selfish acts on the planet – it’s just not evident the moment it takes place.

  20. The Judge says:

    The first sentence in your response is purely rhetorical. I never even suggested such an argument.

    The rest is so illogical that I almost struggle to believe you’re the author. The sentence We currently observe communities that make sex just about two people acting on their mutual attractions; they are rife with poverty, disease, and the sacrifice of children for the inconvenience they present to fulfilling that ‘mutual attraction’ is a gross and inaccurate generalisation. No community or society at all, *ever*, frames its sexual discourse as something “just about pleasure.” I might as well say that certain communities make religion just about candles. Furthermore, you overlook the fact that people engaging in unhealthy, incautious sex is often the outcome of repression – exactly the case in which the utilitarian aspect of sex is stressed too powerfully (and violently), and the opposite of a liberal approach to sexuality. Like China, which you indirectly reference, a place where the aspects of mutual attraction and pleasure are subordinated to birth and population control. (Incidentally, European states, where I grew up, are among the most liberal in the world, yet somehow I missed out on all the “poverty, disease, and the sacrifice of children”, at least by comparison with places like India, where pre-marital sex happens to be inconceivable).

    And I don’t understand why you’re raving about African Aids orphanages to me. I’ve had dozens of partners, yet I’ve never caught nor passed an STD, caused an unwanted pregnancy or an abortion, much less destroyed a family. There’s been emotional distress, no doubt, but ironically less than what I’ve experienced when serious relationships met with difficulties or ended badly. If the argument is that casual sex risks hurting you, then serious stories are to be avoided with even greater prudence! But jokes aside, this is what I meant when I spoke of the maturation that derives from sex. Its destructive consequences are usually the case of someone being too repressed on the subject and acting rashly or forcefully for want of experience. A man who never gets laid will jump at the opportunity when it presents itself, regardless of circumstances or safety. One who has sex often and knows it will happen again in due time is far less likely to give in to the temptation of making love without a condom or with a partner who may be emotionally unpredictable/unstable. Of course this isn’t the case for everyone, as superstars like Tiger Woods demonstrate, but I think the super-rich/famous make for a different case altogether, as they live in a corrupt world of their own. Assuming generalisations can be made on the way people make love anymore than they can be made on how they choose to enjoy a sunset.

    Ultimately I really don’t get what you’re driving at. All I can infer from this exchange is that you claim my way of experiencing sex is wrong, while I don’t stake the same claims on yours.

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